Rema and Swizz Beatz on the Difference Between Flashy Possessions and Art
The come from different worlds, but the Bronx-born superproducer and the Nigerian pop star share a relentless creative drive
Photographs by Gustavo Soriano
Swizz Beatz, the Bronx-bred superproducer turned art collector, and Rema, the upstart Nigerian artist who’s become a global superstar, are sitting in one of the larger rooms at the Record Plant in Hollywood. This is the type of place where Swizz, 45, has worked since he was a teenager, and into which the 23-year-old Rema has scarcely ventured. Right now, though, the topic isn’t music — it’s the custom chain around Rema’s neck, a piece inspired by the artwork for his 2022 debut album, Rave & Roses. “It’s one of the best chains I’ve seen in a long time,” Swizz says, as Rema explains that it took three months to design.
Earlier this year, the Selena Gomez-assisted version of Rema’s single “Calm Down” became the first song led by an African artist to stream more than 1 billion times on Spotify, but that almost seems beside the larger point of how thoroughly Rema has penetrated the culture at home and abroad. Swizz has some big numbers on his side, too; two years ago, ASCAP estimated he was responsible for more than 350 million record sales. But again, that barely measures the impact he’s had since he began crafting hits in 1998 as the nephew of the founders of the pioneering rap label Ruff Ryders. An expert controller of chaos, and Alicia Keys’ proud husband of more than a decade, Swizz has made his mark both in and out of hip-hop.
As the pair discuss Rema’s upbringing in Benin City, the conversation drifts back to Rema’s chain, and to the role that visual art, especially those pieces produced with bronze, has played in Nigeria’s history. There are numerous Nigerian masterpieces in museums around the world, Rema points out — especially in Britain, pilfered and never returned.
Swizz: Do you collect art?
Rema: I create art. For now, I’m not collecting. I stay hustling.
Swizz: Let me know when you’re ready to collect art. That’s something that I’ve been doing for 20-something years now. I have some big announcements coming with our art collection, which is called the Dean Collection. I just want to show the youth — to show everybody — how to start doing different things with the earnings from their talent. There’s so much put in front of us: There’s cars, there’s watches, there’s jewelry, there’s a house, and then … you kinda get stuck after that.
I remember being your age and just wanting things. When you look back, you just bought a lot of things. But imagine if you set a goal and had a purpose for those things, so that everything throughout your career added up to a bigger story. If I could tell my younger self [anything], it would be to take my next steps with purpose, because we don’t get this time back.
Rema: In Nigeria, they say when the first person to get their family a big break, to make it out of the hood … it’s different. You just kind of have [that responsibility] in your subconscious, like, “It’s not just about me now. It’s for me, my family, and the generations to come.” You know?
Swizz: How does it feel, coming from where you’re coming from, to be here in L.A., where we’re at? You have a show in a couple of hours where people are gonna be screaming and singing for you, and you’re all the way in America. Did you digest that yet?
Rema: I’m still taking it in. Like I tell my boys … sometimes I don’t feel famous at all. I just feel like I’m chosen to do this. If there was no me, there would be no one else.
Swizz: You know, I actually feel that sitting in front of you. I can tell that it’s a gift. I can tell in your demeanor, I can tell in your spirit, your aura. Your energy shows me that you’re calculated. What are your next moves?
Rema: I’ve been on the road for four years. Back to back. Dropping bangers. It’s helped my growth, just nonstop going, going, going. And as much as a vacation is needed, I don’t like to feel idle. I have so much planned for evolving the sound. I’ve always been that guy: I want to change the game. To be honest, I see — even though some artists would not give me that glory or whatever — I know how many people have copied my moves. [Swizz laughs.] And I’m flattered by it.
Swizz: When you’re trailblazing, people wanna follow the blaze. I remember when I used to drop my sounds, and people would pay people to copy my sounds because my price was too high at the time. I was super upset in the beginning. Then I said to myself, well, the blessed part is: I’m not the one copying. I’m the person leading. It showed me to stay a step ahead, keep trying new things, and keep leading the charge, and know that people are gonna follow — but one thing people are gonna always come back to is the quality.
Rema: Facts. The quality. And when the game names you something? Like when I named myself the future, that was just an unconscious responsibility. But when the game, by itself, calls you “the prince of Afrobeats,” or you’re this or you’re that, it’s like the universe has picked you, you know? The culture cannot deny that I’ve opened doors. Even though I’m just four years in.
Swizz: Now, what would you say to the little kid back at home trying to get where you’re at?
Rema: Just tell yourself the truth. Do you wanna copy, or do you wanna create? Do you want it the easy way, or do you want it the hard way? Because a lot of people feel like, once they bloom, it’s up. But that’s where the work really starts. Some people like it for the flashiness, [or] to get the girls, the jewelry, the cars.
Swizz: The materialistic things.
Rema: They want to take pictures every day. They want to show off and all of that. To this day, no one knows if I even have a house.
Swizz: You don’t even know if you have a house! You haven’t been home in four years!
Rema: [Laughs.] I never made that my priority. My name is in the news every day, but it’s not because “Rema got a girlfriend,” or “Rema bought this,” or “Rema did that.” Even the chain — nobody knows the [price] of the chain. I just talk about the value of the album.
Swizz: Man, you’re very wise for your position and your age, and it’s a breath of fresh air to hear the youth speaking. Because a lot of people? They really don’t get it. The message that I give to up-and-coming producers or songwriters is like, listen: Be original. The best thing you could ever be is original. Because if you’re original, then you can control that journey. If you’re copying other people and you’re doing something just for a quick fix? It’s gonna be exactly that. It’s gonna be a quick fix. And it might work! But then when it works you can’t balance it. Because it’s not you.
I know how many people have copied my moves.
—Rema
Rema: Who gave you meaningful advice that got you this far?
Swizz: Oh, man. I was lucky to start in the family business. My family owned Ruff Ryders. My Uncle Dee, my Uncle Waah, my Aunt Chivon — it started as a family business, and so when I was coming up I was always around family. DMX, Drag-On, the Lox, whoever, we was all family. Still to this day. So my uncles and them, coming from the streets and seeing them change their life, and getting into music, they gave me a lot of good advice.
But I also listened to a lot of older people. Like, I listened to senior citizens. My grandmother raised me, so I was already in tune with wisdom. Older people that have been through so much — and they have no skin in it. They don’t care about your money. They’re just telling you factual things, unbiased. I would listen to a homeless person and get some knowledge and some juice from that. Even still to this day, even with all of the success, I’m still a student. Never count somebody out who might not be as fortunate. What they’re saying could probably change your life.
Rema: Observing is a skill. Sometimes I’m just quiet in a room. [People will be] like, “Yo, what’s wrong?” Nothing is wrong! I’m just taking it in.
Swizz: So you did your album in your room?
Rema: Yeah, most of it in the room. I had my guy London come stay with me for a while. London’s my main guy — it’s about synergy. That’s what I really like. It’s like Metro [Boomin]: Metro has synergy with a lot of artists.
Swizz: He’s one of my favorite producers, and he’s a good friend. I mentor him. It’s just amazing to see how producers are able to evolve no matter the climate. When I started, I remember, I had a rock track out: “Rollin’,” by Limp Bizkit. I had DMX, Jay, and then some R&B vibes all at the same time on the radio. Metro’s one of the only ones who can be versatile like that today.
I’m glad you got a person who understands your sound, and you guys have a synergy, because that’s how me and DMX were. We had a synergy. Other people would do beats, but it’s different when you have that formula. You can’t be scared of the artists if you’re producing. If I’m just saying yes to anything [I don’t like], then I’m doing myself a disservice, I’m doing the fans a disservice, and I’m doing you, as the artist, a disservice.
Rema: Yeah. Sometimes they don’t even like the songs, and they remove their tag. Like, “Just take the beats.” But you can tell you didn’t like the song.
Swizz: There’s a few songs that I wish I didn’t put out. I know at that time I was probably doing the artist a favor — or I was being lazy. I listen to it today and I cringe. Like, what made me do that? Forget how much I got paid for it. Forget it. I know that I was being lazy.
You gotta imagine, I’ve got so much in the vault from artists. And no disrespect to none of the artists that I work with, but I’ve got music from when they was very hungry and really, really not distracted. And sometimes, when the success happens so big, the artists don’t have that energy no more. I usually pull up an old song, if I feel like an artist is swaying away and they’re kind of lost. I’m like: Let’s take it to the basics of what got people to love you. This is the energy they want. Because sometimes people just go way too far, too fast, too soon.
Rema: Process-wise, I know you’ve been in the studio with a lot of people who write, and a lot of people who don’t write. Like, me, I don’t write most of the time. I make use of energy mostly. That spark. That brightness. When that idea comes, I just want to drop immediately. Sometimes everyone knows that I could do a better take, but I’ll be like, “No.” I don’t want that perfectionism to come in, you know?
Swizz: What made me really popular when I first started was I would have the beat and the chorus already laid for the artist. They just had to plug and play. I would look at the energy: If they come in with their friends, it’s like, “Oh, he’s in a club mode.” Or he or she might be sad with their lover, they’re a little down: “Oh, we’re gonna do a good love song.” I’m always gauging the room. Because you could come in in a mood — you’re thinking about your girl — and if I’m pushing a party song on you, it’s just not going to work.
I mean, it worked for DMX one time, with “Party Up.” But if you listen to “Party Up,” he does everything against the track. Like, you could tell he didn’t want to do the song. But I forced him, because we was on a deadline. It’s the most disrespectful verse I think he ever did, and it’s the biggest song we ever made.
Rema: I record really [snaps fingers] quick, quick, quick. I don’t like to be in one idea too long. So when I record I make a sad song, and then the next one is a party song, and then a sad song, and it’s just different vibes. I really have fun with producers because sometimes, I’ll be like, “Where is that folder, that one where you hide them weird beats that you know nobody is gonna vibe to?” Because we know in your free time, you guys just create stuff. Those are the jams I like.
Swizz: You know something I used to do to the artists? I used to make a beat that I know they’d love and just cut the machine off.
Rema: Ugh!
Swizz: They would get mad at me the whole day. “You just threw away a hit!” And I’d say, “Don’t worry about it. We’ll make another one.” That used to be my thing. Like, there’s something I didn’t like about it, so I didn’t care if I lost it.
Rema: I feel like [with production, we’re] gravitating more musically into a point where collaboration is needed. You can’t do everything. I’ve observed, especially in the new generation of producers, not everyone is good with playing actual instruments. Everyone is really good on their computers, but sometimes you need that spice of someone who’s actually musical. Like, “Bro, you killed this stuff on the laptop, but I just need some little things.”
Swizz: They gotta know that Dr. Dre use help, Pharrell use help, Timbaland use help, Kanye use help, I use help. If you don’t specialize in something, you need help. Like, I was taking piano lessons, but I stopped taking them because I didn’t like that it was putting a limit on my imagination. It started boxing me into what was “right,” what was “wrong.” So I said, “You know what? I actually don’t want to learn the piano. I want to bring somebody in that knows it.” … My wife is like you. She cannot stand fake horns, fake bass lines. “No. Put the violin on the song.”
Rema: I’m like, it’s not just about now. In ten years’ time, when we hear this stuff, we wanna be like, “Damn! When we were 22, when we were 20, we were crazy! Look at the things we were thinking about!” That’s how I want it to be. Even with mixing. I don’t play with mixes. Like, you check my phone, my laptop, you’ll see “Mix 15,” “Mix 19.” The fans don’t really be knowing what it goes through—
Swizz: A lot of process.
I listen to a lot of older people. Like senior citizens.
—Swizz Beatz
Rema: Some people don’t care. But me? I’ll catch a flight to listen to that mix. We do the studio test, then we check different cars.
Swizz: There we go. The car test is mandatory.… This studio that we’re in right now … the hallways in here would be like sometimes a party, sometimes a prison. They used to put all of the artists’ names on the door, right? This room, Pharrell worked in a lot. Timbaland always worked in the other room, in the back over there. My wife [would be] in the middle, through here. It became like a community hangout where you had gang members, you had record execs, you had lawyers, you had everybody in one spot. This was where a lot of hits was made.
Rema: I’ve seen Pharrell videos in one studio especially. I think it might be this one.
Swizz: Pharrell used to have live orchestras and different string sections. Same with my wife. She used this room for big string sections and things like that. But it was crazy because we had a nice conversation, and then outside, this place was like hell. Hell in a good way!
Rema: Having different creatives in one building is amazing — and still, it’s competitive.
Swizz: It’s always competitive for me. I remember when I was working on B’Day with Beyoncé. She’s a Virgo too. She’s so smart. So she comes downstairs, and she was like, “I got Rodney Jerkins upstairs, I got this guy upstairs …” And I thought it was gonna be just me and her. I was like, “Oh, OK. Shit, there’s a bunch of us?” And it forced me to go left. I had gotten so overloaded with how, like, these guys started in church. They can play anything. Me, I’m a kid from the Bronx. I had to change my mind and say, “You know what? I’m in here because of what I do.” And I stripped everything out the beat, and then that’s how “Get Me Bodied” happened.
Rema: When you find your purpose, I feel like the heavens rejoice: “Here we go with someone who has found a fresh frequency to bring into the world.” I don’t know about superhero movies or all of that, but one way to be immortal is music.
Swizz: One thousand percent.
Rema: Styling by MUI-HAI CHU. Video Director of Photography: BRET HAMILTON. Camera Operators: CHRISTINA CROPPER and PASCALE WILLIAMS. Gaffer: LISA TOM. Sound Mixer: TARA CATHERINE REID. Interview Editors: CAMI STARKMAN and TARA CATHERINE REID. BTS Editor: JAIDAN ROYAL. Photographic assistance by SAUL BARRERA. Styling assistance by DAVID GOMEZ and JUSTICE JACKSON